Leading Outsourced Teams

Matthew: Sure, I actually still own the business. So I’m still in it. But because I hired someone who is good at their job, or great at her job, I was able to go do something else. So I’m in two verticals, which is one is gift baskets. The other is wedding favors. I know when you look at me, you think this guy– is a wedding guy?

Alicia: Extremes– extremes.

Matthew:  Extreme wedding. He really makes you know, weddings. Nice. But yeah, I have like one of the largest wedding favorite sites on the Internet. So yeah, it’s, it’s actually super fun. But yeah, so gifts and weddings.

Alicia: Nice. Excellent. So the first question I usually ask well, that’s I already asked you one. But I typically ask my guests is what is your leadership philosophy?

Matthew: I think for my team, it’s compassion, support, and opportunity. 

Alicia: Hmm. 

Matthew: Right.

Alicia: Right.

Matthew:  So I work with people from a different country, I have 100% remote workforce? Well, I have for years. And one of the things you have to understand is the Philippines is not the United States, they have a different set of challenges, different set of family obligations, and just things work differently. So I’m very compassionate and understanding about the reality that they live in. It’s not better, it’s not worse. It’s just different. I think, as a leader, you really do need to just understand that people live even in the United States, they live a different reality than you people have different realities. 

Alicia: Yeah.

Matthew: You just need to really be supportive and understanding. And I also like to give all my people as much opportunity to grow as possible. So, you know, the less political correct way of saying it is given me enough rope to hang themselves, right.

Alicia: And then rescue them before they actually do. 

Matthew: Yeah, exactly. That’s, that’s a less, but that’s the way you know, people would talk when you’re talking among friends. With business, it’s, I support them in their operating, you know, give them opportunities for growth, and help them succeed to the next level.

Alicia: And that’s really encouraging and very important, too, because it’s when growth happens, mistakes happen, things, you know, you’re asking people to do things outside their comfort zone sometimes, and sometimes they may not hit it out of the park right away. So it’s giving them an opportunity to grow and learn as they grow. Because the growth process always comes with challenges always comes with trial and error. You know, it’s not perfect right out of the gate. So that’s wonderful. Yeah–

Matthew: 100% is when they make mistakes, I actually also think that part of it is our fault rather than their fault. Because if I so easy examples, my gift basket business, my person whose was running it this year, first time doing it, she’s my head of customer service, making very large sales. One of the things she knows but didn’t internalize is we only get paid on shipment and you have to upload a tracking number seems so simple. She didn’t realize that hey, by the way, you need to do this for us to get paid because we don’t charge the client into then. And you know, she didn’t do it for like two weeks right? 

Alicia: Oh, wow.

Matthew: That’s it’s a mistake. We got the money, sake, but at the end of the day, it’s my fault for not putting a system in place to support her to make sure the mistake didn’t happen.

Alicia: And that’s another great part of leadership is personal responsibility, the buck stops with me, you know, I can’t go out and blame people, if I didn’t give them the right tools, or the right direction or the right systems, like you’re saying, to help them be successful. So it’s all also about taking responsibility for your part as the leader in whatever challenge or mistake that happened. 

Matthew: 100%

Alicia: So I love that. I love that when you give people an opportunity to grow, even when they make mistakes, it’s not Oh, my God, look what you did, and make them feel bad about it. Because that’s not productive in any way, shape, or form.

Matthew: It doesn’t serve you raising your voice and yelling, never serves you, and just reveals more about you than them, people are going to make mistakes. I make mistakes all the time. Like, yeah–

Alicia: And that’s how we learn and grow so perfect.

Matthew: Exactly. As we’re talking about, I don’t want to get off the topic of mistakes, because we’re talking about mistakes. And since this show is about confidence, as well, what would be one of your biggest mistakes that you could remember or want to share?

Matthew: So I think the largest mistake I’ve made, so I think, you know, when you own your blog, I bought this the E commerce business I acquired, I acquired it, when I had zero experience in E commerce besides just found some stuff on eBay. And it’s, uh, you know, it was doing already millions of dollars a year in business. And so, no experience, I said, I have a lot of confidence, maybe a little too much. So I jumped in, I said, I’m just gonna go borrow some money and buy the business. And so I think one of the things that I didn’t make, the biggest mistake I made is not putting a time clock on growth, like say, if it didn’t grow, doesn’t grow by 2x by X. I’m selling it and I’m out. Right. And I chased it. So I chased it probably for two years longer than I should have. So I chase it for about three and a half years. And so once I–

Alicia: Are you losing money?

Matthew: No, but I wasn’t making I was reinvesting most of my profits to try to get it to grow. Right. Right. And that was a mistake. Right? It was just a, it was a mistake. And I just always saw like, Oh, it’s right around the corner, I see it, I see the glimpse. And what I know now is I should have gated and said, Look, by a year and a half, if it doesn’t grow by X percent, or X dollars, or whatever it is, right? I’m out, I’m going to sell the business, right? It’s not worth my time. So what I effectively did was devalue my time for an extra for for three and a half years. So really two years, I devalued my time. And it was just, it was a really big mistake and cause a lot of problems. I mean, for me, personally, I was working all these hours. And just for what I mean, it was really for nothing, I might as well have just gotten a job because I wasn’t getting any benefit to owning my own business.

Alicia: And that’s that I think that’s one of the– the myths, the myths about owning, you know, starting up a business or owning your own business is that you just really start your own job without putting the proper systems in place. Or like you said, the if we don’t make x by x, let’s reevaluate this and see wh-what we’re missing and how we need to restructure things in order for it to work or just sell it.

Matthew: Yeah, exactly. Like, I’m out. Like, that’s what it should have been. I’m out differently. Had I done that from the beginning, I probably would be would be in a better position than I am now. Where I COVID was a black swan, right. So it’s not something who would have thought weddings are illegal, right? When you can’t have group gatherings weddings are illegal. Right. So when you so how could I have? You know, I would have certainly been better off. But then again, I also wouldn’t be where I am today had COVID not happened because it forced me to pivot and start a new business. 

Alicia: Yeah. 

Matthew: You know, there’s always opportunity chaos.

Alicia: That’s always all Thank you. There is always an and in fact, that’s what in thinking Grow Rich, because you know, that is where the biggest opportunities is, is is it often comes in the form of failure or defeat. That’s when you start looking for the opportunity. So doesn’t always come wrapped in a bow and say, here’s a great opportunity for you. Sometimes you gotta look for it. 

Matthew: Yeah, I started, I started my first business few years into the last downturn. So in 2010 2011. And then I started this business, the latest business and, you know, in the pandemic, and it was, in May was my first customer and now we have 50 people for that business. 

Alicia: Nice. 

Matthew: You know–

Alicia: Yeah, th-that’s great and that’s that’s the the business where you’re supplying a workforce, so to speak, for entrepreneurs to help them understand how to hire remote workforce.

Matthew: Exactly. So it’s virtual assistants. So basically, you are instantly the problem that entrepreneurs face in the United States is they can’t afford the help they need. 

Alicia: Yeah.

Matthew:  Right. And it’s a major problem. And so what we do is leverage the fact that different countries have different pay scales. 

Alicia: Yeah. 

Matthew: So what’s a middle class wage or a an executive wage in the United States is not the same dollar and dollars, not the same amount? 

Alicia: And the, and the cost of living is very different as well. Yeah, I have a VA. And it’s people look at me, like what I’m like, Yeah, but that is their, that’s their pay scale. So I pay based on their pay scale, I’m not paying. I’m not shortchanging them or anything they call, they tell me what their fees are. I’m not I’m not dictating to them, what their fees are. So yeah. And it is it, it is such a, an incredible way to establish your business and get the help that you need, without really running your business into the ground.

Matthew: Exactly. There’s so many advantages, because now all of a sudden, we’re getting mid career professionals, who have all this experience for 16 to 18 bucks an hour, who now can actually help you run your business, 

Alicia: Right.

Matthew: It’s not someone who’s going to just do social media for you. It’s actually someone who’s going to oversee you all your projects, report to you what’s going on, follow up, help you manage clients, if that’s the type of business you’re in, it’s a world of difference. And your you know, for 60 to $80 is comparatively in the United States, it would probably be like between 80 to 120,000. A year. Plus benefits. 

Alicia: Yeah. Yeah.

Matthew: It’s pretty dramatic.

Alicia: It makes a big huge difference. Indeed. So I want to, you said you are confident, it probably a little overconfident. When you started, when you bought your first business? Where does that come from? For you?

Matthew: I think part of it is growing up in New York to be honest with you. New Yorkers, we are very confident, confident of ourselves–

Alicia: Well from a young age. You’re taking the subway by yourself.

Matthew: Yeah, I mean, like, so I, you know, it’s you’re just used to hustling, you’re used to believing in yourself, and you’re used to believing that, hey, if this person can do it, why not me? 

Alicia: Why not me? 

Matthew: Why not me? No–

Alicia: That’s great. 

Matthew: It does. It’s it is great. But sometimes it can get you into trouble where you’re a little smarter than you are. It’s the entrepreneurial roller coaster, right? hockey stick, I think goes up to the right. But the truth is like not really from for, like 99.9% of people. So, you know, I bought the ecommerce business, and I had zero I thought I understood the internet, because I use the internet–

Alicia: Right.

Matthew: That has nothing to do with it–

Alicia: It’s like I understand cars because I drive a car every day.

Matthew: Guess what, if you like I like cars, I like you know, buying cars. I like fixing cars. I want to go open a dealership. 

Alicia: I’m going to open it.

Matthew: So I just learned a lot of lessons the hard way on how the internet really works on what businesses and competition and you know, so it can get you into trouble. But it’s also it’s also fun, right? Alicia: Yeah–

Matthew: There’s nothing like trying to succeed when you don’t have a choice.

Alicia: And it depends on the type of person you are as well. Whether or not that will absolutely stress you out and send you you know, like drinking Pepto Bismol every single day instead of water or it just flat out excites you. And you’re like let’s let’s do this. Let’s hit it. Let’s go for it. And so understanding part of leadership is also understanding your tolerance for risk and your tolerance for certain things. The unknown you Know how much can you take before you’re pulling your hair out?

Matthew: Yeah. So I think a lot of it has to do with also risk mitigation. So it’s not that I like Remy and I don’t mind risk, but I’m also comfortable with mitigating risk–

Alicia: Right.

Matthew:  So I’m not going to sit there and trying to lose everything. But I’m going to go into a risky environment say, Okay, how do I mitigate this and not lose my shirt? Right? You know, okay, so in my example, let’s go hire the right people was educate myself about, you know, the different areas of the internet business, right. Let’s also, you know, buy business that’s sufficiently large. So this is a great example.

Alicia: It is self sustaining.

Matthew: Right, but not just self sustaining. COVID happens. There’s such a far way to the bottom, that when it bottoms out, it still survives. 

Alicia: Yeah. 

Matthew: Right. So because the business did a lot of revenue. Look, I couldn’t have predicted COVID in 2008, this business did amazing, right. But, you know, we, but it went down so far, but because it was so high, even when it went down. Okay, so I make a lot less money. Right. I’m not bankrupt. I also was mitigated because we had other businesses to balance out the e commerce portfolio. Right. So you know, entrepreneurship, isn’t everyone? I think it’s a misconception. It’s not about risk. It’s about opportunity, and risk mitigation.

Alicia: Risk mitigation. Yep. Very good. Well said that, that is really one of the areas well, you can, you can know what your tolerance is for it as well. But when you’re smart, you have to be able to do exactly what you’re saying, mitigate that risk, so that you’re not looking at Losing Your Shirt, you’re not diving into something completely blind. That’s not entrepreneurship, that’s, you know, you want to take on a hobby or something, you do something like that. You want to build a business, you need to be able to forecast and do do a few other things to help your business, make sure that your business is sustainable, and can grow. So talk to me a little bit about your plan for growth after you realized the mistake that you made is like, Oh, now, how do I fix this?

Matthew: Yeah, so for me, what I did is I said in this case, I was just working 14 hours a day. And I was like, What am I doing? I’m valuing my time and very little. And I said, Okay, well, let’s go get somebody actually, I didn’t say this. I was going to China with my wife out of family trip. And she said, I really hope you would not work on this trip. I think, you know, listen, for those people that are married, when your wife says, I would hope that’s really not a request–

Alicia: That’s a direction. That is direct. 

Matthew: This is what you’re doing. 

Alicia: This is what we doing here. 

Matthew: Right. So she’s like, go hire someone from the Philippines to run your business. I said, I’ve never done like, I don’t know, anyone’s hired senior level people. Well, guess what, go figure it out. So I took two months, and I found someone who was sitting, you know, she ran 100 person, company, his chief of staff, and they hired to be my Chief of Staff for at the time, it was six people. And she helped she came in within 45 days, I was working three hours. Now, I probably were two to three hours a week, and it’s more a discussion I have with her, then I’m actually doing any work. 

Alicia: Wow. 

Matthew: So what happened was what was interesting. So is that right away, operations ran better. Right? I was able to think I got out. So you hear a lot of people talk about work on your business, not in your business. Right. But it’s, it’s really true, which is why everyone says it. So I was able to focus on other opportunities to grow. My overall I would say like my business portfoli–

Alicia:  Right–

Matthew:  See what that would look like, rather than just kind of grinding and grinding and grinding –

Alicia: grinding and grinding. Yeah. 

Matthew: You know, just what you’re saying. operations like yeah, that matters. That’s gonna make my business better, but it’s not growth makes your business better. That’s how you make more money. 

Alicia: More client. 

Matthew: Yeah, optimization is great. And you can make a lot of money and optimization, but you can only optimize so much. And so during COVID Right, what happened was obviously the wedding business just dried up and dried up completely but significantly.

Alicia: For at least for three months there. There was nothing

Matthew: I couldn’t we couldn’t even ship my supplies. 

Alicia:Yeah– but I think between March and June like there was nothing happening. 

Matthew: Yeah. And even now it’s still pretty slow–

Alicia: Like trickling trickling trickling. Yeah.

Matthew: It started like we’re starting to see a lot of uptick right Um, you know, like we had 50,000 People come to the site last month where previously, it would have been probably 120. Right, like, but we’re starting to see an upswing, but people aren’t gonna buy they’re buying for, you know, August, right? So it’s still slow. So I said to her once we, you know, it’s okay, let’s, you know, we structure the business, right? And because I’ve been doing entrepreneurship a few years, I was able to do very quickly–

Alicia: Right.

Matthew:  But I said to her, Okay, well, what if, you know, all my friends thought I was crazy when I found you? Right? They couldn’t believe I gave the key business was doing $5 million a year, like you’re nuts. How you going to give that to someone you’ve never met? I said, I Well, it works. What if we just go find better people from the Philippines, just better people, people you can’t find because we’re Americans, find them for other entrepreneurs, to help them grow their business? And she said, Yeah, of course, we can find people. It’s a country of 100 million people, right there, people. And so we, I started on this journey, you know, in May, and like I said earlier, like, we were at 50 People now. 

Alicia: That’s awesome.

Matthew: And it’s, you know, again, opportunity and chaos. So, you know, in one respect, you know, that my business blew up for us on pause, as I like to say, but because I learned the lesson of getting out of my business, I hired the right person to help me, she helped me grow in a way I didn’t anticipate when I met her. Right, yeah, I didn’t anticipate I’m starting a new business. Yes. I’ve never physically met.

Alicia: Yeah. And we live in a world that with technology now that these things are so possible, you know, 20 years ago, this would not have been possible. So take advantage of the opportunities and the time that we live in. As entrepreneurs, this is a global marketplace. Stop boxing yourself into your region. 

Matthew: Yeah, absolutely. 

Alicia: And it’s not just for big businesses anymore. It’s not just for the GE s and the, you know, those big big fortune 500 companies that can afford to have a whole works a whole you know, work and, and when you call them warehouses and, and distribution sites off offshore. This is for everybody.

Matthew: It is for everybody. So they’re right now, look, first of all, we often call so one of the things that’s coming out of COVID is, you know, everyone has a virtual assistant, essentially, because we’re all not everyone, right, but we all working, are working from home. So what’s the difference between Boston in Buenos Aires and Manhattan? Manila? Nothing

Alicia: Just the timezone

Matthew: Except in the Philippines is already a culture of working us time zones.

Alicia: Yeah, exactly.

Matthew: So there is no difference. So you know, for small businesses take advantage of that. There’s no and I understand, like, if you’re if you’re a business owner now, and your team is working remotely, and it’s successful, what’s the difference in getting someone overseas? 

Alicia: Yeah

Matthew: Your is not. They’re going to be loyal, they’re going to be appreciative. They love working with the United States, people from the United States, because we treat them well. Yeah. And take advantage. Get ahead of it now is what I say to everyone. Because in three years,

Alicia:  This is not gonna be the same. No, everybody’s going to be taken. 

Matthew: Everybody’s going to be doing this.

Alicia: Everybody’s going to be doing it.

Matthew: So go ahead of your competition.

Alicia: Absolutely. I have. I wanted to ask you about team dynamics with a remote world. I know a lot of times when I speak to leaders who have worked a workforce in house, a lot of things happen, you know, over coffee or just in the hall, you can pop your head in ask a question. There’s that team dynamic. How do you create team dynamics with remote work? 

Matthew: Sure. So the first thing so I have two different businesses, I my ecommerce portfolio, right. And I have my virtual assistant business, my outsourcing business, right? To differentiate so my, in my E commerce business, what we you know, we talk to each other every single week, right? I’m on a call like, so I’m on a call with the team once a week. I’m on a call with my Chief of Staff every single day, you know, standup meeting, right but not a phone call but actual video.

Alicia:  right a zoom or yeah –

Matthew: Before Im  when I was running the team before I had her I was on the call with every – every single person individually, once a week or once every other week, right? So now she does that. So we also then you know, Slack very important But video calls are the most important thing you can do. Because it’s not the same as a phone call, it’s, I see you, I see social cues, I can just, you know, you talk to people about their family, you get the gas a little bit, right. So we already had that. So for the virtual assistant business, honestly, I’m still trying to figure this out. I meet with my internal team regularly, so I’m on a call with them twice a week, my chief of staff still, you know, once every other day or more every day or more often. And what we’re trying to do is have once a month, we just did a virtual Christmas party. And so we’re doing once a month, we’re gonna get on, you know, have some sort of little trivia night or things like this, where we could just engage each other. The other thing I do is when people get hired 30 days after we send them a t shirt, we send them a mug, so they get to feel part of the team.

Alicia: Right.

Matthew: Now something I’m gonna do that most potluck if you have one person in the Philippines, you’re not going to do this. I’m gonna go over the Philippines once everything opens up probably three times a year, and host events to meet everyone in person. Yeah, right. Now, that’s something as an agency, I’m going to do an individual entrepreneurs are going to do it. But you can have relationships with people. I’ve had people. I have people working for me for four years. You can have relationships with people.

Alicia: Yeah,that you never met–

Matthew: So–

Alicia: Exactly. Yeah, 

Matthew: Video video.

Alicia: I’ve done a lot. I have a lot of relationships with people I’ve never met in person. And they’re really, really well working relationships, as well as great friendships. Never met, never met in person.

Matthew: And it’s fine, right? Like, yeah,

Alicia: It’s like a pen, pal. What if you were younger, and you had a pen pal before the internet and all that? Because? Yep, I’m pre internet. Way pre internet. So we used to write letters to people.

Matthew: Yes. Oh, my God. I remember in elementary school being forced to have a pen while

we’re dating ourselves. But that’s okay. I’m fine. I people know that I don’t care about my aid, telling my age, it’s not a big deal. Now, the last thing I want to ask you, as we wrap up, because we’re, we talked so much we’re running out of time already. What is a day in the life? Now that you have this freedom as an entrepreneur, what does that look like for you?

Matthew: Sure. So this afternoon, I’m gonna go snowboarding. You know, it’s, what it does is give you more control of your time. On one hand, I am doing a lot of you know, I’m growing a new business, right. And my goal is to get it to 100 people by September 1000 people within a couple years, right. So I have so I have to work. I mean, the systems aren’t set up. Like I don’t have a fully built out sales team yet. I’m still building the race car while I’m in the race. Right.

Alicia: Right. analogy. 

Matthew: But that being said, right, I took two weeks off mostly during the last two weeks of the year. You know, I focus on you know, I’m going snowboarding today. So I get more control of my time. The other thing I get to do is focus on things that grow the business. And this is what every entrepreneurs should focus on. Stop. Okay, I say stop focusing on operations. I don’t mean like your business, Walmart. But that’s not what makes you money. Because you like have the best processes ever created. Guess what? You’re not gonna getting another client because of that.

Alicia: Exactly. Yeah, absolutely.

Matthew: So I focus on growth, I have these type of calls, that adds value to my business, right? I do sales calls right now, because I’m the head salesperson, right? That adds value. I talked to the team, my job is to my job as CEO is to actually make sure that the team is has the tools to succeed in their individual roles. It’s not to do work. It’s a mindset, right. I had to learn this. Right. So I gets us strategically look. Okay. Hmm. We’re understaffed and recruiting. I want you guys to hire two more recruiters within the next 30 days. Right. Okay. Well, I should go–

Alicia: Well that’s the question I have that just popped up actually is how do you define roles for people in your business? Like if you were doing everything yourself before? How do you now define those roles?

Matthew: Sure. So if I was to when I talked to a client, here’s what I say. Divide your your week into two tasks. Really. It’s really simple. It’s not complicated, strategic, not strategic. So strategic, tactical, and anything that doesn’t require you to think or domain expertise. That’s tactical. Someone else should be doing part that out. Right? Boom, done. So get rid of it’s, it’s probably 80% of your day, get rid, hire someone full time to take that over. Right? So now you’re only focused on growth. Now, what I also say to people is if you can’t spend that frees you up from your 80% of your tasks, you can’t grow your business by a few 1000 a month, you have a bigger problem. You do. 

Alicia: Yeah. 

Matthew: Right. So and then once you divide out all the tactical tasks, say, Okay, what is now busy work for the person who’s actually overseeing all this stuff, push that down, clearly define a roll bucket it right. So you’re gonna have my case, you have HR duties, you have Client Onboarding duties, right? So that’s, so we bucket that out, then you hire people to do that. Right? They say, Okay, how do I further segmented? Let’s look at hiring. I see. Okay, I have a recruiter. Great. Well, I need another recruiter. Okay. But what are they doing? That’s busy work for them? Well, they’re screening resumes, well, let’s go hire resume screeners. And you see, and that’s, that’s called Scaling, right, basically pushing down the work, you know, to specialists in each individual area for it just gets further and further reduced. Right. And that’s how you’ve scaled organization.

Alicia: Nice. All right. Well, this has been very helpful, very insightful, and a lot of fun. Talking to you, Matthew, is there anything that I should have asked that I didn’t ask just as we close?

Matthew: No, I don’t think so. I think this was really fun conversation. You know, I think that hopefully, people get value out of it.

Alicia: I buy they would, yeah.

Matthew: Just leave you with, you know, with the –this advice. Entrepreneurship is a roller coaster. Right? It’s just about staying in the game. 

Alicia: Yeah.

Matthew: it’s, you know, that’s what it is. So, you know, don’t read what you hear in the media. Right? It’s, it’s still believe what you hear in the media. It’s not just everyone doesn’t. All of a sudden you’re not Mark Zuckerberg, I’m not Mark Zuckerberg, this one marks I but –

Alicia: Not Elon Musk. 

Matthew: You’re not.

That’s okay. There’s there’s a big difference. It’s a big gap between us. Really successful, just stick at it. And it’s a craft like anything else.

Alicia: Yeah. Well, thank you so much, Matthew, I really appreciate your time for coming in and sharing your wisdom with us today. And I just want to encourage everyone to, you know, stay tuned to leading with audacious confidence. We always have great guests that are willing to share their knowledge and expertise with us and their own leadership philosophies and their their confidence, as you can see with Matthew here. So, as we close, I’m going to encourage you to be bold, be brave, step into your own audacious confidence to lead your yourself, your teams and your organization to success. See until next time, this is Alicia Couri saying bye. 

Alicia: [ Closing ] Audacious confidence is the unshakable belief in yourself that’s so brave, and so bold, that you step into what’s possible, despite your feelings, fears or failures. I encourage you to like, comment, subscribe, and share this out with your friends. To check out more episodes of this podcast, visit our blog, at least your curry.com forward slash podcast. This is Alicia curry inviting you to lead your life, your teams and your organization with audacious confidence. Until next time